The Spiritual Discipline of Family: a conversation with Dr. Tom Hamilton

What does it really mean to love without conditions?

In this conversation, Scott sits down with Dr. Tom Hamilton—Bible professor, academic dean, husband, father of eleven, and adoptive parent—to explore love as more than a feeling. Together they discuss marriage, adoption, parenting, and family life as spiritual disciplines designed to shape character, reveal selfishness, and form Christlike patience.

Drawing from decades of lived experience, Tom reflects on unconditional love, the cost of commitment, the formation power of family relationships, and how God uses ordinary, often difficult relationships to make us more like Jesus. This episode challenges modern assumptions about marriage, children, comfort, and success.

Topics include:

• Why marriage is a spiritual discipline, not just a romantic choice
• Adoption and loving without guarantees or outcomes
• How family life exposes and shapes character
• Cultural myths about money, children, and “having enough”
• Why unconditional love must truly be unconditional

"Remember, you are loved, so go, love better!"

Transcript

I'm Scott Beyer and this is the Love Better Podcast where we explore the truths and the lies about love and more importantly how to turn love into a skill, something we can get better at and hone along the way.

One of the things I love most about this podcast is the opportunity to introduce an audience that I love to people that I love… and especially when those people can help us all love better. I’d like to introduce you to Dr. Tom Hamilton. Tom and his wife, Joy, are amazing people doing lovely things with their life. Tom is kind, patient, and has a way of saying things that makes you realize that life is full of glimpses of God if we will just slow down and remember why we are here.

I recorded this with Tom months ago, and going back over the conversation recently, I realized how many profound statements he had made.

This is a conversation about adoption, marriage, parenting, and large families—but more than that, it’s a conversation about unconditional love. Not the sentimental version we often talk about, but the costly, patient, character-forming kind. The kind that refuses to quit when love isn’t returned. The kind that reveals just how conditional our love often is—and how patient God has been with us.

Tom doesn’t speak as a theorist. He speaks as a man who has lived this out: in a decades-long marriage, in a home filled with biological and adopted children, in moments where loving like Christ wasn’t poetic or easy, but deeply uncomfortable and demanding. What struck me most listening back was how often Tom reframed ordinary Christian ideas—marriage, family, parenting—as spiritual disciplines, God-designed classrooms where we are slowly shaped into people who love better 

There’s wisdom here for parents, for couples, for young people thinking about marriage, and for anyone trying to understand what it really means to love without conditions. I entitled this episode ‘The Spiritual Discipline of Family’, and I hope that you benefit as much from your time with Tom as I have.

Scott Beyer: [00:00:00] Tom, before we get into anything else, let's cover , the basic questions that you probably get 10,000 times. What do you do for a living and how many kids do you have?

Tom Hamilton: I came to Florida College 20 years ago to teach in the Bible department, and did that up until. Three years ago, and so I got appointed as the provost or academic dean of the college. So that's one of those positions. That's kinda the buck stops here. So the whole educational program I'm responsible for, so that's the, the, library, the registrar, all the degree programs, the faculty. So most people that work here work for me technically, if faculty, they don't really have a boss. It's just, it's more collegial than that. But so that's what I do for a a job, also been preaching the entire time at the 58th Street congregation here in Tampa. Serve as one of the elders there. And I [00:01:00] don't remember. What was your other question? 

Scott Beyer: How many kids do you and your wife have and how long have you guys been married?

Tom Hamilton: Oh, how long have been? Okay.

Scott Beyer: Sorry, that wasn't a gotcha question. My, my bad.

Tom Hamilton: I shoulda have to think this thing through. I'll tell you a story. We were at the bank one day because I had opened a savings account when Joy was outta town and she had gone to transfer money from the savings to checking. And they said your name's not on the account. And so she said we gotta go down there and take care of this.

And so we went down and very nice lady. This was before COVID and she said how long y'all been married? And Joy says, oh, I'm so bad at numbers. I always have to ask my husband. She says, how long we've been married? I said, 34 years. And lady, oh, 34 years. That's wonderful. And then we get to talking about the kids and what ages are your kids, how old's your oldest joy says 36. And I said, did you just tell this lady, we've been married 34 years and we've got a 36-year-old child? I said, where did the, oh, I'm [00:02:00] bad at numbers. I need to ask my husband, kind of thing. So anyway, I'm sure you'll edit all that out. So we got married in October of 83. So 41 years, B 42 this fall. And the first time I met Joy, we met on the campus at Florida College. And I think she didn't wanna waste any time. She said, I want to have six kids and adopt six kids. And like a lot of her dreams, I've, I've crushed that because we, we only have 11. So we've fallen short now. People that are familiar with adoption, there's probably another 20 kids we've tried to adopt over the years and it fell through for one reason or another. So we have the six bio kids and have adopted five. And many of those are grown and outta the house now.

My youngest is 17, so he was one of the first ones we actually adopted. But so we, we still have a couple, living [00:03:00] at home and others in the area, but a lot of 'em have moved back to Muncie, Indiana, where. Many of 'em were born and we labored there with a church in Muncie for about 15 years.

So that was prior to moving down here to Florida College. And that was a real wrench to leave because it was a great church. And but and it's a different experience with the kids. 'cause, we had a house out in the country and they could just roam free. And, and it's quite different in, suburban Tampa.

But yeah, so I work at Florida College and in spite of the pay, I, I have 11 kids. So

Scott Beyer: With six biological five came home through adoption, what was it chronological in that sense of you had six biological and then began the adoption process?

Tom Hamilton: yes, we of course Joy always wanted to adopt, obviously. From the first moment I met her, she had that in her heart. I must say. I grew up in the church, as we say, I knew [00:04:00] James 1 26, 27 were in the Bible, but I cannot, I have no memory of what in the world I thought that verse meant. 'cause I had no clue of any responsibility of taking care of any orphans or widows.

I, I guess I just never met any that were in need or something, or I wasn't aware. And it, it clearly was because of joy that I was pretty, pretty, changed in my attitude and, and outlook about things. And but we did, which I, I think is pretty common with a lot of people who are interested in adopting. It's we don't want adopting kids to run our bio kids. So you'll get 'em old enough where they're, on their way and then adopt some kids that are younger than them. I. Experience what it was like to adopt and, and going through that process. I, I don't feel the same way as that I think it's more nuanced than that.

You, you need to look at your situation, [00:05:00] assess your, the family dynamics, the kids, and their maturity level and things like that. And, the child you're considering bringing into the home because, adoption is always an adjustment for everybody. The child being adopted, the every member of the, the existing family. And there's always baggage, there's always scars. The devil is involved in every adoption situation because, the, the proper thing is that a child should grow up with their mother and their father. And anything other than that is, is. This broken world and it's sin and, a world God did not intend for us.

And so you, you have to deal with those things. And so our process was in 2010. So our youngest at that time was Steven, and he, he was 11. And we got a phone call of a sibling group of a sister and a brother. [00:06:00] And so the girl was five and then the boy was two. And they were considerably younger than. Steven was. And that, that was our first experience. And that was according to plan. We, we waited till Steven was a little older and adopt these younger children. But the next two we, this may be the definition of insanity. We, we adopted a 17 and a 16-year-old set of brothers from Crimea back when it was part of Ukraine. And so that clearly was not, going for the younger kids. It put them pretty much in between. Steven and his, his next older brother who's only, a few months older than the oldest boy was that we were adopting. And that really changed the family dynamics a lot.

It, it probably most impacted Steven. So I do think there were, there's a price that people pay our kids pay a price for some of the [00:07:00] decisions we make. And, and I'm sure a lot of that probably we could have handled better. And this was all new to us adopting, kids that are so old that, the idea that we're just gonna, spank 'em into line or it, it's more like the only influence you have on them is more like a coworker that a grown adult you're working with and their life's a mess and they're making bad decisions and, you can only help them to the extent that you win their confidence and they'll listen to you.

And and so those first three years were. Really very challenging because first of all, they thought only people that are completely out of their minds would adopt a, orphan that old. And they'd given up any hope of ever being adopted by anybody. And so they had no respect for us. We're just lunatics, and of course their friends back in Ukraine, were telling them we're gonna sell 'em into slavery or sell their organs. There, there has to be some real reason they're doing [00:08:00] this. This isn't because they care about you and their

whole life and war. Yeah, 

Scott Beyer: me that there would, that the pushback there is not just external, but it's actually internal in the relationship with the boys. That they're skeptical of your motivations. That's an interesting dynamic. I don't know that I would've thought of.

Tom Hamilton: Yeah. And, and their whole life in the orphanage, they'd been. Disappointed. Any, anytime they got their hopes up about anything, it just, the rug got pulled out from beneath them. And so this is like too good to be true, and of course you say this is, their forever family and we love you no matter what.

And, but yeah, we know the, the reality is that you're just in this for yourself somehow. We hadn't figured that out yet, but, and it's not the real deal. And so the first three years they were pretty much making themselves as odious and unlikeable just to prove we were gonna break. This phony pretense was we were gonna cave. And I, I. Pleased to say that. I, I [00:09:00] think we outlasted them and proved to them it was genuine after all. And, and once they got, that was like a, a switch flipped, because once they were convinced, man, these people are for real. That, that made all the difference in the world. And so now they're doing real well.

And they do live locally here. And Jeff's married now and about to have his first kid at the end of this month. Real, real pleased how that's turned out.

Scott Beyer: As you mentioned, so now you, you adopt these two boys that are much older. They're, they're breaking the birth order even with your bio kids.

, Why the change? You had a plan before why the change that all of a sudden you mix it up and you're doing something entirely different.

Tom Hamilton: I think we had some experience, we started, once we had adopted the first time we started getting more involved with adoption and adopting couples and counseling some people and things like that. So I think that our thinking had [00:10:00] already started changing that it maybe not necessarily you gotta adopt kids that are younger than the ones you already have. But probably the, the biggest thing is what reordered my thinking and probably where my wife was all along is, taking care of an orphan is. It, it's a spiritual obligation and of course not everybody can do that. They might not be in a stage of life or financially or, any number of limitations that we have. And of course, there are many different ways to help take care of orphans. But I felt if it was within my ability to take this child who needed a home into my family and give them a home, if I could do that, and again, there's a lot of factors that go into making that decision. It's not just can I physically do it? That there, there's all the factors that have to be considered. But once I concluded, yes, [00:11:00] I just, I couldn't in good conscience say no, we're not gonna do that. I've always preached to people that. Our responsibility is determined by our ability and our opportunity. And so every time that Dana Osa would, call and say, Hey, I've got a child here, can you give them a home? We always said yes. We, it'd take us a while to deliberate and make sure the situation. But and I'm at a point now where, someone said, I got a 2-year-old. I'd probably say, ah, I just that's not a good idea.

I'd probably be dead before, they graduate high school. Got a face reality of circumstances. But so given that and so when Dana called up and said, Hey, she's got these two brothers who are gonna age out of the system over in Ukraine, and they're gonna be out on the street.

And the statistics didn't bode very well for, their future. And I thought we [00:12:00] can, provide 'em a home. And, and maybe in the back of my mind I was thinking 17 and 16, if it doesn't go well, that's not a long-term commitment, but here we are now, 13 years later and, they're, they look at 'em just like any of my other kids.

They're our children and trying to help 'em through life. So

Scott Beyer: Did you have a positive reaction from everybody? Did you get mixed reactions from those around you? You, you are around faculty but you also have a church family, you have extended family, you have grown kids. When you entered into this process, what was the reaction of those around you?

Tom Hamilton: our experience has been, very supportive by certainly our family and our church family. The one kind of exception to that was with Jeff and Nick, the, teenagers from, from Crimea. We certainly encountered some people who thought they're, they're so old, what's the [00:13:00] point?

You're just wasting your time. You're not gonna be able to, fix all their problems. We had to do a fundraiser to try to help out with, some of the costs involved. And, I didn't dwell on this at the time, but later on someone pointed out to me, he said, did you notice that, certain people didn't? Come to your fundraiser or contribute or help in any way. And, And, I said no, I didn't notice. And and they said because they think you're making the biggest mistake in your life. And, they don't wanna be party to that but they never said anything, to us. Pushback comes in different forms, but, I've known a lot of people that have had people who, who, didn't pause at all to just lamb blast them.

And I've heard horror stories about, people taking their. Adopted children to church for the first time, and they've never been expected to sit still in a quiet kind of setting. And so they're a handful and they're a little bit disruptive. And, and you would like to think that [00:14:00] God's people would be understanding and compassionate, to be like if your kids are gonna make all this racket, I'm gonna have to consider going to a different church or, setting in a different location or something.

And, but that gets back to that, how can we take care of orphans? Again, maybe it's not taking them into your home. Maybe it's not even, you have the financial resources to help bear the outrageous costs that are involved legally made us be emotional support for, a mother who's trying to take care of these, disruptive kids and instead of making that burden, more difficult for her to, lighten that somewhat, can I, can I sit with you and help you in some way, or, something I can do? And that attitude does make all the difference in the world. And so we were, we're very grateful that we had a, a more positive experience with that. The same thing was true with just having a large number of kids. You go to a restaurant, it was usually Taco Bell 'cause that's about the only thing I could [00:15:00] afford

Scott Beyer: Yeah, the cost factor 

Tom Hamilton: and not today's Taco Bell either. Probably wouldn't go to a restaurant at all these days. But you walk in with six kids and, people are like, oh, why? That's a big family. And, and often we'd be with my brother-in-law and he had eight kids. I remember going to McDonald's on a Wednesday night, which became a routine and they got to know us, but like the first time we showed up, they're like if you bring in a church group, if you'd let us know ahead of time, I said this isn't a church group. This is just our family is. But it had dawned on me at some point that someone walk in with three kids and I'd be like, wow, that's a big family. Because you don't see that that often. Most people have the one or maybe two. And so even, you know me, I see someone walk in with three kids and that's a big family.

'cause I never see myself walk in with six kids, see what that appears from the outside. We

have these cultural expectations and assumptions.

Scott Beyer: yeah. Why do you think that is? Why do you think there aren't more large families? Historically there [00:16:00] have been in America, but I agree with you. I see a family with three or four kids and I'm like, that's a big family. And I have larger than that. Not quite as big as yours, but we both have what would be considered wildly big families.

Why do you think that is? That there are more large families?

Tom Hamilton: I, I certainly think in the broader view as you look at the philosophies, but people live by, in western civilization, I guess you might say, where the birth rates are so declining that people aren't even having enough children to replace themselves because, a mother and a father are gonna have to have two kids just to, stay even, you're gonna have to have more than two to. For society to be growing and increasing. And you need that to sustain productivity and, meet the needs of society. So my assessment of that is we have, western culture is so [00:17:00] self-centered. It's, it's the spirit of the age. It's not the gospel that you were created for the other and deny self and sacrifice self to serve others.

It's, it's, you and yet within that part of our selfishness is we wanna feel good about ourselves. So we'll do good deeds like, a adopt a stray pet or have a child, within reason. So one kid, two kids, but boy, you start getting three, four, or five, six.

That's just. Excessive, and people can justify that, how can you bring a child into, this world and climate change and, all the other problems better just not to be created to begin with. So I think that's part of it. I, I think probably most Christians aren't that thinking that way, except to the extent we're probably, subconsciously influenced by the culture in which we live.

And there's definitely a very anti [00:18:00] child kind of bias in the age in which we live, anti-family. But I think with a lot of Christians, they probably think can you really afford that many kids? And if you include in that the cost of a college education of course that drives up the cost significantly. Is that really necessary? And I say that as, someone who works at a college, I don't think college is necessary for everybody. And government meddling, increases the cost substantially because just like it does for anything government gets involved in that's unfortunate. But I do think that a lot of Christians I've known what they think is necessary to have a standard of living that's acceptable, is probably impacted by the, the materialism of the culture in which we live. I I say there's two outstanding characteristics of American culture and one is everything's hypersexualized and the other, everything is hyper [00:19:00] materialized. And so I think on those two issues at least, that it would be really foolish for a Christian to think. Even as a Christian and trying to follow the Bible to think that you have a, a normal view of money and of sexuality, that's probably not correct because all we've been exposed to is not just an unbiblical perspective about those two things, but an extremely abnormal and bizarre emphasis on those things.

And so I think that can't help but impact us to some extent, to think we need more money than we really need. And so if we buy into that, and again, that's everyone's decision to make. But I don't know all the factors that, how carefully people decide these things. But I have, I, we've joined, I've lived very frugally. I, till I came to Florida College, I was just preaching for. Small [00:20:00] churches. I, I hated having to ask for financial support from other congregations, and I just lived on as little as I could. And of course I, I don't know that was necessary. But we

certainly got by on a, a lot less than what a lot of people would've thought would, is, essential for, you need, I don't know how many, tens of thousands of dollars per kid to be able to, just get by in life.

Scott Beyer: Yeah, if you, if you were talking to people, because I think you're right. I think a lot of people would look at the number of kids that you have and say if I start putting a dollar amount on that, I can't afford to have this many kids. One of the things that is great is that you stand as a bit of a referendum on that.

I mean, you, you're not, you're not some CEO of a Fortune 500 What are some things that you have seen as you've raised kids who are very well adjusted, who are doing very well, that your kids didn't have that you wish people understood.

Yeah, my kids [00:21:00] didn't have these things and it didn't hurt them or their character.

Tom Hamilton: Yeah. They didn't have a lot of things that a lot of other kids their age had. But I, I just think about my own upbringing. We, I didn't come from an affluent background and it was the typical, if you had a cardboard box and an imagination, and that was. That was all the toy you needed, to, play with your brothers outside and just have a great time. And, and I, I do think there's, again, as a consequence of kinda all the materialism that we really buy our kids far too much stuff. And just the fact you can afford it and it and you're not, cutting into their, food in order to give 'em an Xbox or something. I I still think just as a spiritual decision, we need to be very careful about the impact that kind of material indulgence can, can lead to, it is just almost a, a [00:22:00] given that the more a child is given, the less appreciative they are, for that.

And, so

Christmas time comes around and they have all these presents and they open 'em and there's a ten second, ooh, this gonna eat. But then it's immediately, it has no value to them. And that's what happens when everything is of value. It has no value. And so better to have, time you spend with your kids or memories you make with your kids. And that's certainly what my kids now as they're adults and have children of their own, they, they think back to all those things, they don't feel they were cheated or deprived. There were many times I told them that no, we, we can't do that. We don't have money for that. I'm sure there were probably far more occasions where they didn't even ask, why don't we go to Disney World?

Or Why don't we, this, that, and the other is do that. We, it wasn't gonna happen. But they certainly don't feel like they were. Cheated out of, of something. Now the, the college thing is harder for me [00:23:00] to answer because one of the benefits of me working here at the college is, the, the kids do get their education pretty much paid for. And so that's been a benefit. But I can say that my, my oldest came here a year before I did to work here. And so I'd already worked through that in my own head that if that's a decision they wanted to make about going to school, then they would make the arrangements and pay for it.

And so I didn't feel that was a parental obligation I had. Now the federal government feels different and that kind of impacts, what aid they have available to 'em and things like that, which is unfortunate. But and so I probably would've done that with all the kids. I've said, you make that decision to do that, then. More power to you, and may you be blessed in that, but that, would be something they would have to do.

Scott Beyer: Right? Did you know you are a very educated man. You [00:24:00] have your doctorate. Am I correct in saying 

that? Yeah. So did your parents pay for that?

Tom Hamilton: No.

So.

I paid for every institution of higher learning I went to and got what scholarships and things I, I could, and so I was very blessed and grateful for that. So I guess that informs my own kind of thinking about, what my kids should be able to do. 

Scott Beyer: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's fair. Did your kids share bedrooms? I'm assuming they probably did.

Tom Hamilton: Oh yeah. Yeah. They were, at most it was a girl's room and a boys' room. And of course not all 11 were at home at the same time. But we did have eight bunked together in was a large kind of barrack style. My wife uses it as her quilting and sewing room, so it has this big long quilting machine in it. But back then it was like, like four sets of bunk beds and boys were in there. In our family, the, we had four girls all [00:25:00] together, and so the boys outnumbered the girls, but.

Scott Beyer: Yeah. But I think that's another classic one that comes up is like every kid has to have their own room

Tom Hamilton: Or you gotta have new clothes, or

again, people eat out far too much better. Or even if they shop at the store, they're buying the prepackaged more expensive convenience items. And we do the once a month cooking, kind of prep and

freeze things and it's just cheaper, 

Scott Beyer: As you look at adoption you've talked about how your faith, impacted the reasons for adoption, right? Is there a reverse of that? Is there a reverse where yes, my faith led me to adopt, but now adoption and the way my family has grown has impacted my faith.

Tom Hamilton: absolutely. I think I mentioned earlier that, we were created for relationship. We were created for the other, not for self, [00:26:00] and that's first and foremost God, but also all these fellow human beings made in the image of God and the school room of relationship is the home.

That's where we first learned about. How relationships work and how you get along with people and how you're not the center of the universe and so on. At least that's what we're supposed to be learning. But you, and for the longest time I thought of that in terms of, the kids are learning, and at some point it dawned on me that I was also learning.

Of course, you, you learn how to be a parent with, on the job training. The first time you're a parent, you've never done it before. The most you have to go on is the model of your parents or your in-laws or what the Bible says about parenting. But there's all those practical daily applications.

The Bible doesn't get into that level of detail. And so you, you are learning and we know that that is. The biblical way because [00:27:00] it talks about how those who are qualified to serve as overseers in the spiritual family of God's people they learned how to do all of that by managing their own, physical family. And so you learn how to be a father. And that wisdom and experience then is, is passed down to others. But it, it was probably with the the Russian boys we adopted from Crimea. 'Cause they were 17 and 16 and they were again, making themselves just about as unpleasant as possible to get us to say we've had enough, yes. Our love was conditional all along. And you've called our bluff and we're, we're gonna, wash our hands of this,

Scott Beyer: For the record, nobody can see this 'cause this is just audio. But Tom has this like little smile on his face while he is saying that. And what I appreciate is the fact that he's on the other end of this where you have that, I doubt you were having that little smile in the 

Tom Hamilton: No. It's it was, [00:28:00] it it taxed my patients. Certainly. I told people, I said, if, if I was much younger, if I was in my thirties, for example, there's no way I could've done it. They, they probably would've broken me. It, there was a moment I can't remember what exactly one of them did, but it just hit me like a bolt out of the blue that what they have done to me isn't anything that I hadn't done to God a hundred times over.

And yet God is so patient and forbearing and merciful, and. Then why can't I be, that for them. And that, that was a real breakthrough moment for me where I realized I, I needed to, learn that lesson and grow to that point. And again, that doesn't mean things are always gonna turn out, like a Pollyanna story. It got other friends that adopted teenagers and their struggles they have are, still ongoing. And had to deal [00:29:00] with things that we gratefully, didn't have to. And I, I don't know what I would do. I'd like to think I would be strong and do the right thing, but you don't know until you're tested. But, but that certainly was a faith building. It, it taught me what kinda real patience was. I, I've often thought about job, suffering and. At some point it dawns on him that suffering is teaching me something. And it's, it's developing my character and that endurance.

And, like James says, it'll have its perfect result that we'll be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. And okay, I get it. God, that's what suffering's for and I've learned the lesson now, so you can turn off the suffering, and of course that's probably proof that you haven't really learned the depth of the lesson.

It's

one thing to learn the, the topic, but what's the real depth of what it means to love unconditionally and, have perfect humility and perfect patience, like Jesus does. And that that's the [00:30:00] goal always to be more like him. And I, I came. I'd like to say I was always this way, but it was a growth process where I came gradually more and more to realize just how, how important marriage is as a spiritual discipline to make us holy and more like Jesus.

How your family interactions. I say occasionally to the kids, I say, sometimes I think God's a genius. That's my humorous way of trying to put this, but it's like God really knew what he was doing when he designed things that work this way. Because if you think about it, God's committed himself to doing this without coercion.

He is not forcing us to change our thinking or our heart. And, and so how do you design something that can accomplish that without the coercion and. And again, that's the power of a sacrificial life. The power of the relationship, the power of unconditional love. And, [00:31:00] and again, not that we can 'cause the moment you start thinking as long as I love unconditionally, then it'll always have a positive outcome. 'cause then we start putting conditions on it. I'm really not loving unconditionally. I'm loving with condition.

I'm gonna adopt these kids. Because eventually they'll become a Christian, or eventually they're gonna return the affection I have for them. They're gonna, call me dad and love me like I've loved them. And you cannot enter into adoption with any condition or expectation, because this unconditional commitment is, has to be truly unconditional love no matter what. So what happens if it's not as. Pleasant as I thought it would be, or it's challenging. And that's what takes me back to James again, rejoice in trial. Because even trial is a blessing, it is a gift from God that it's not a gift we naturally want or desire, but if we know [00:32:00] that as long as I deal with this in the way God wants me to, and I can always do that, I can always do the right thing in whatever circumstance, then I know that God is glorified, God is pleased.

I've become maybe just baby steps, but a little bit more like Jesus. And that's the goal. That's always the goal. And as I try to be more like Jesus and I can help people along the way, then that, that's a bonus, and of course the ultimate. Demonstration of this is Christ himself. He sacrifices himself, he loves unconditionally, but it may be the majority of people reject that and don't accept the love and won't have a relationship with him. And we have to be prepared for that. Even with adoption now it seems like there's a natural affection that people want to know and be known.

And so if they find that they're truly loved and, [00:33:00] and they're not so damaged beyond the ability to return love and to trust it may not be the perfect outcome, but at least a more positive outcome than than otherwise, 

Scott Beyer: sure. There, there's a hope there. But I like how you put it. You can't say it's unconditional love. Say, I'm gonna unconditionally love until

Tom Hamilton: right, 

Scott Beyer: It's a self-defeating statement. and 

Tom Hamilton: We'll stay married as long as we find it mutually satisfactory.

Scott Beyer: yes, that's another thing that you said that I think is really powerful, is the spiritual discipline of marriage. That I, I don't necessarily think that we think of our relationships in our family as a spiritual discipline as often as we should. It's, but it's clearly in scripture that it, that.

There's a lot of spiritual involvement in working with a [00:34:00] spouse, working through your finances together dealing with, everything from household chores and, and divvying those out. And, how do you, how she treat you when you forgot the garbage to take it out to the street again, and those sorts of things.

There's a spiritual element to that. You I think I'm not overstepping to say that you would agree with me that you married well.

Tom Hamilton: Oh, yes. Yes. 

Scott Beyer: How much has that impacted your life and how, imagine for a second that you were talking to young people, of which you do all the time in your profession, but just candidly, how much does picking a spouse impact everything else?

Tom Hamilton: oh. Yeah. It, it's probably the most significant decision you will make short of committing yourself to following the lordship of Jesus. I, I compare it to money and education, those are things that get a bad rap, money's inherently evil or an education is inherently evil.

That's not [00:35:00] true. It's true that a lot of people have allowed money or education to be master rather than you being master of it and it's serving you. But as, as long as we use these blessings of God in the way that God intends them to be used what they tend to do is act as a magnifier of who we are.

And so they magnify our faults. And so if we're materialistic, then money's really gonna expose that fault more clearly. If we are prideful, getting an education that's gonna magnify that arrogance that we have. And so in the same way, the choice you make of who you're gonna marry is the largest magnifier of all about. Where you are in making that decision. So if, if, if, if your decision about who you marry is as superficial as what do they look like? Their physical [00:36:00] beauty and I care nothing about their spiritual character, for example. That'll, that, that'll be a huge influence and impact on your relationship and your life, and I have no doubt you'll come to, if you're still spiritual at all, you'll ru the day that you did that. And so who you marry is just it's just, and, and so in my case, I'm know as sure as I'm sitting here, I would've given no thought whatsoever to adoption unless God and his providence brought some other influence in my life and, hit me with a brick or something. Woke me up.

But, and it wasn't just that, home birth, I, I grew up in Arkansas as a, science, math guy. I was gonna be a, literally a brain surgeon. My best friend in high school he and I were gonna have a practice together and he's, he is a neurosurgeon in Knoxville, Tennessee to this day. But I, decided I wanted to preach. So I, I, went a different direction. But, but that was my background. And this let's homeschool let's home [00:37:00] birth I'm surprised we didn't home church, but it's just, but it was always oriented toward family, she was already light years ahead of that and dragged me along and I learned, from her. And so I just. I, mean, I I hate to even think where I would be today, without her and that decision. But I have to confess, I, I don't think looking back to my, 20-year-old self that I chose to marry her because of those things. It, it was really by accident, the providence of God that it turned out we were compatible. Maybe we perceived subconsciously we were more compatible than we were. But and, and it worked out fortunately. But boy, I would not recommend any young man approach things the way that I did or make his decisions on the basis that I did because I probably was very superficial in my thinking and, [00:38:00] and fortunately, dodged a bullet, on what it could have been.

But, yeah, because it's a little embarrassing because we, we teach a marriage and family class here at the college, and often the instructor will give an assignment to go interview, a couple people on campus about their love story and so on. And, and so they, they come and ask me and, joy and, and my story is like, she asked me out for the fall banquet, Sadie Hawkins thing. And we just started hanging out. And it was like three weeks later that I asked her out on the first date I ever asked her out on and proposed to her on December the third, 1982. So I would not recommend, proposing on the first date you, 

Scott Beyer: your first date?

Tom Hamilton: first date. I asked her out on, now we've gotten to know one another, but. Boy, I just, I don't want any kids on this campus going [00:39:00] off and doing that. I don't want my kids doing that. But, and again, I think it's more to the grace of God that, things worked out better than, from where I am now. I think that's a recipe for disaster, 

Scott Beyer: it's interesting you say that because, so Jenna and I got married, I was a month outta high school. I feel the same way as you. I don't recommend it. People come and ask us our story of how, what, what do you say about that? And, and it's worked out very well for us.

And God's been very kind to us. And, and I think there's providence and there's grace and all sorts of things in involved in that. But then I also wonder sometimes, do we are we being culturally influenced that we're not that we're so hesitant for people getting married? Young or getting married in your case you knew each other, you knew what your values were, you knew you you knew you liked each other, and then it was like that was enough.

And then you've grown together over the years. I don't have an [00:40:00] answer to this, but I am really curious now about your feelings on it. Do you think maybe there's some cultural influence that makes both you and I hesitant for people to take the kind of path that we did?

Tom Hamilton: It may be partly, it is kinda like people when they are baptized into Christ at a young age and then you grow and you get to a 0.1 day and you're like, man, I didn't know what I was doing when I. Committed myself to following Christ. And in a lot of those cases, maybe they did.

And it's, it's unfair to see how much they've grown and compare themselves, back then to who they are now. And so if I had a better memory things or more objective understanding of who I was and where I was at that time, but I know part of it is I just cannot but kick myself that at the age of 20 years I should have had a much [00:41:00] better understanding, a deeper, more biblically rooted understanding of what the purpose of marriage is. That's why I try to, teach my kids that I expect them to be further along at 20 than I was. And, as preachers we can't help but double down on the things we felt like we missed out on. And, we wanna make sure our audience doesn't miss out on this. And,

and I don't know whether it's that those things were never preached on, or I was just young and stupid and wasn't paying attention, and maybe today some of these people will, 20 years from now say, I wish Hamilton had preached on this. And I'd be like, what do you mean? I did 60 times? You weren't,

weren't paying attention, you, you weren't ready to hear it, so I think that's a good bit of it. And of course, you know your own mind at that age, whereas you got a young person and sometimes maybe all you know about 'em is they're young. And if they've grown up in American society [00:42:00] with the normal assumptions you might make about that, then they're probably not very well prepared at all.

And. When it comes to marriage in particular I'm not sure that we've done a very good job of talking about marriage as a spiritual discipline. It it's, even now, I think you talk to most American Christians, why do you wanna get married? 'Cause I love this person and I, I feel like getting married or it's gonna do something for me, which already seems to be counter to the perspective of the gospel, which is deny self sacrifice, self suffer, and yet it's almost as if you were to say to somebody who's getting married, oh, you're interested in suffering. Is that what you're looking for? And it's, oh, don't denigrate marriage that way. Marriage is suffering. It is hard work. It is like anything. In which you're called to deny self, it's going to be challenging. One of the most [00:43:00] challenging things of all is you're gonna be forced to confront the brutal reality of who you are. And you're not nearly as spiritually minded as you think you are. You're not nearly as nice a person as you think you are. You're not nearly as Christ-like as you like to think you are. And again, marriage is gonna be that magnifier that's gonna draw attention to all those flaw flaws and and faults. And that's a hard thing.

Can we stand to really look in the mirror and see ourselves, the way that God sees us. And yet, that's the beauty of marriage as well. It's not a denigration of marriage to say it's hard work, and it does involve suffering and sacrifice because. You know that that's against the romantic notion about marriage, which is what our culture's consumed with. But it gets to the very heart of the biblical picture of marriage, which is, here is, all Christians are called to deny self sacrifice, self [00:44:00] crucify, self and marriage is an opportunity in the most intimate of relationships to do that to the limits of human ability with one person. And so that, a, a wedding's actually a double funeral where these two Christians are gonna die to self on an even deeper, more profound level. And why would anyone do that? Because that opens up doors of opportunity for spiritual growth that. Would be closed to you otherwise. Now, are you required to get married? No. And people that don't marry can still be fine Christians, but their path to being like Jesus is going to look different. Just like those who never have children, for whatever reason it's gonna be different. And God has designed it where it is this very it is, you talk about the greatest degree of vulnerability you'll have to any other human being. They know the absolute [00:45:00] worst thing about you and still accept you and still will love you unconditionally. And, and they find out what those dark bits are.

It's not oh, I didn't sign up for this, or there's the condition. We finally hit the brick wall where I can't love you now because of that. And you realize that in a relationship that, the love that a person has for you is based on you're good looking or you're smart, or you're rich, or you're popular and all these other superficial things. And obviously all those things can be lost or taken away through disease or accident or age. But they flatter us, oh, I'm good looking or I'm smart. And that's why we like that kind of love, but it's not secure because we, we'll lose it just as soon as we lose whatever the foundation of the, the love is.

And so it doesn't seem as flattering to our ego for God to say, I choose to love you. Even though you are not lovable. You're, you're very unpleasant. I don't even like you, [00:46:00] but I will love you. And again, that's not romantic. I wouldn't recommend we talk to our wives that way, but on some level, they, they understand.

As a Christian, that's the way it is. That's the deal. And that more Christ-like commitment to love unconditionally, like God has loved us. You, you'll experience that in marriage in a way that, you don't as deeply as others, and a spiritual family with other Christians, it ought to be that way to some extent.

But, in a marriage it's even deeper. But how many young people at 20 years of age, oh, this is why I'm gonna get married.

It's gonna make me more like Jesus, and it's gonna be challenging, it's gonna be difficult. But that is the reality of it. And so I, I don't hold that against young 20 year olds because they're young. But you hope that they have enough commitment to God and his way that they'll grow into it and they've come to appreciate it for what it is.[00:47:00] 

Scott Beyer: Yeah, it sounds like because it's interesting you say they would grow into it. 'cause that was the kind of analogy I had in my mind is it's almost like when you buy your kids shoes, knowing that, I don't wanna buy shoes every two months, so we're gonna buy you some bigger ones, and you'll flop around in a little bit until you grow into 'em.

If the commitment is there, you can get married at a very young age and you'll grow into it. If the commitment isn't there, it really doesn't matter how old you 

Tom Hamilton: right 

Scott Beyer: It's never gonna fit because there's something about

marriage is so different than other relationships. If I have a disagreement with you, you and I have enough time and distance and busyness of our lives that I just wouldn't have to interact with you. We could avoid each other. But when you have a disagreement with a spouse, it's we go home to the same house, we rode in the same car we're gonna sit at the same dining room table, and it [00:48:00] forces you to figure it out.

Maybe most importantly, figure it out when it is at least partially your fault, right? You have to dive into that character building that I could probably avoid with other people.

Tom Hamilton: right, absolutely. Yeah.

Scott Beyer: Yeah. And it's, I, when you refer to it as a spiritual discipline I know I keep coming back to this, but that's. I love that phraseology because it is so biblical.

Of all the things that the church is compared to in its relationship with Christ, it's marriage. So here is this kind of microcosm of the bigger relationship the more eternal relationship marriage is, is earth bound only. And Jesus made it clear on that subject that they're, we're not gonna be married nor given a marriage in heaven.

This earthbound finite relationship that can last a whole lifetime is a really good school room for the bigger relationship in a [00:49:00] way that other relationships are harder to get that level of intimacy too.

Tom Hamilton: Yeah. It forces you to carry through on your commitment, like you're saying, and I, I think you're right. It's just like when you commit yourself to following Jesus, you, you have no clue what that means. 'cause you haven't even learned all of the. Commandments or other things that, God's gonna expect of you, but the commitment is there that, oh, I, I need to, be kind to other people. Okay. I've committed myself to doing, I didn't know that when I signed up, but I'm doing this without condition. So I do think that's a significant part of it. And like you say, that's not, long as someone's old enough to make that commitment, whether you're talking about being old enough to commit yourself to following Jesus or commit yourself to this other person. Yeah. I don't know that we should be that concerned about the age that is involved and, and maybe the reasons people after for waiting may be more that, the conditions being right. The to [00:50:00] please me or what I want it to be, or something like that. And, and again, that. On some level is fine.

I'm not saying we need to run, run out and find the most unpleasant person and commit to marrying them. 'cause I'm really gonna have trials and a spiritual challenge here. Because the thing about marriage the way it ought to be, 'cause anyone who gets stuck in a bad marriage you can still love like Christ loved and be sacrificial and not never be reciprocated. But that's painful and that you can still glorify God and do the right thing in the circumstance you find yourself. But God does intend for this relationship to be reciprocated and it only is a full and complete relationship when it is reciprocated. And when you have two Christians that are both committed to that self denial and sacrifice and serving of the other whether it's as Christians in a church or in a [00:51:00] marriage, that's where the fullness of the joy comes in.

And it's not the joy of I'm getting, what pleases me or I'm getting something out of this relationship. It is the joy of, of serving the joy of doing something for the other person. And again, I think a lot of young people understand that if commitment and wanting to love the other person and serve the other person but again, I suspect most of us at that age still would struggle with, but I'm willing to do that because I'm gonna get something out of it, and. Then that becomes something of a condition. And so if, if I'm not getting out of it, what I expected, that becomes the grounds for disappointment and, and divorce ultimately. And so do we have the brute spiritual determination to stick it out no matter what? And of course, the world would say, no, don't do that.

That's just foolish. But even that has a [00:52:00] virtue to it, that you're, you're a person of your word. You're gonna stick with your commitment, even if it's painful and, not turning out the way you had hoped or even maybe expected. 

Scott Beyer: That's at least part of the message of Hosea. I mean that, that there's an entire book dedicated to that kind of one-sided love, and Hosea is a honorable individual. But it's definitely a much harder road. I guess maybe, maybe after our conversation, the advice I would give young people is make sure that you're committed.

You probably don't. You're gonna grow into some of the skills, but make sure you're committed and make sure they are also committed to, to Christ and to the agreement, the vow of marriage. And if you've got that solid, you can probably grow into the rest of it. I guess you'll muddle your way through.

Tom Hamilton: And that's the key is, and it's unconditional, and and so the moment [00:53:00] it's whoa, I didn't mean this, that just shows the whole time it never was unconditional. And, and that is the absolute key. It's you're committing yourself to, this kind of loving like Christ loves, type of thing.

So I.

Scott Beyer: Yeah. And I almost wonder if part of it being unconditional is agreeing, at least in theory, that as you become aware of conditions. You will set those aside because I think there are some subconscious, as you've talked about, conditions we place on that and, oh, I didn't realize that was a condition I had in my mind.

Now I have to let go of that, which it is easier said than done, but still doable. 

Tom Hamilton: right, and it's kind

of back to what we were saying about being embarrassed by our kid, and we're focusing on that rather than, no, it's, he's a child and I'm supposed to be the adult and the parent, and what's the best way to handle this for the child? Not what's best for [00:54:00] my, social reputation or whatever. 

Scott Beyer: I, you have very generously given me a bunch of your time. Do you have anything that you would like people to know before we, we finish up?

Tom Hamilton: I, I think when it comes to spiritual discipline, I mean the, the question of having kids comes up too, because I think this is another area, just like we haven't thought through why to get married. Is there a spiritual reason to get married? I think most people understand that if you do get married, you want to be committed to it.

God hates divorce. You want your marriage to be the way God describes it. But that's still not quite the same as understanding why God designed marriage the way he did and what it is intended to do for us. But that's also true. I don't know that a lot of Christians have sat down to think why should I have children or not have children? And I think most people are like do we want to get a dog or do we [00:55:00] want to get a cat? It's a similar kind of question, and you answer it in a similar way. I feel like getting a cat, okay, we'll go get a cat and have a pet, it'll, it'll be nice and, it'll show affection or whatever. I don't know that some people make a decision about having children on a much deeper level, than getting a pet. And I think that's what happens in some cases, even with people who adopt because there's certain expectations and they know it's a good thing to do, but once they get into it, it's oh, this is different than I thought it would be.

Or it's more challenging. Or they discover that they don't feel about their adopted kids the way they do. They're biological kids. And again, that, that speaks of condition, if we really had unconditional love, it wouldn't matter whether anyone's blood related to you or not.

I, I had a kind of profound experience the other day. I said that the house, and it was like, there were several other people, in, in the house with me there. And it's I think nine other people. And I [00:56:00] just, it did dawned on me, I am not biologically related to any of these people because this is my wife and my adopted kids and their spouses and their children, my grandchildren. So I have grandchildren I'm not biologically related to, you know,. I didn't really think about that, but. There's a theological reason for having children. The first command is be fruitful. And I wouldn't insist on that. People that don't are somehow failing God.

'cause one Corinthians seven, you don't, you don't marry, that's okay. You do get married. That's fine. You don't sin either way. And likewise with having children, but I really think it gets down to what's your motivation or reason. And if I don't want to have kids because they're messy or they're expensive or they impinge on my, selfish desires, that's clearly not the way a Christian ought to me thinking about it. But I, I would hope that more Christians, we give thought to, there's a, a deeper reason for it than just I feel like having [00:57:00] kids or it'd be nice to be a parent because we are co-creators with God in this process. God's the one that made us. Reproduce sexually. He could have made us asexual beings and we, bud to reproduce or something. But we are co-creators in this process. And and it, it's, a way ought to be a way that we think in terms of if I think my life has any value and the, the virtues that I hold to the values that I hold to are important and should be preserved well, how are they gonna be preserved? At the moment I die, I have no impact or influence input about that. But we extend ourself into future generations through our children. And so I think it's important to teach and believe these things about Christ. And so raise up children who will. [00:58:00] Have those values passed to them and they will pass them to their children and on down. And, and that is a spiritual work, and of course physical reproduction is not the only way to do that.

And you don't have the guarantee that your children are gonna be followers of Christ or your grandkids or great-grandkids. And there's another way of reproducing, which is, having spiritual children, kinda like Paul talked about Timothy being his child in the faith. But one of those two ways.

And they're both having children and teaching and passing those values down. And again, we can't force anyone to accept those values. But it certainly is easier with your kids. You have a natural bond and. At least their default position is gonna be mom and dad are right about this. And, and so if we're teaching them the truth hopefully they'll be more likely to accept that and, and live by it than tend to reject it. [00:59:00] Converting other people that's a more challenging thing. But once they're converted, hopefully they'll pass that on down to others as well. But I think that's at the root of you had asked me before about Psalm 1 27 about children being a blessing and the man who's quivers full of them. I definitely think that's a passage a lot of Christians probably don't appreciate or maybe would joke more about it than, take seriously because it does speak of. That children are a blessing. We ought to view 'em as a blessing and talk about 'em as a blessing and not as a burden. Not as if a person who has nine kids or 11 kids is somehow cursed or, don't you know what causes that?

Or, these things that we make light of. And it's not, again, that necessarily every one of these kids will turn out to be what they ought to be. The Psalmist talks about, not being ashamed to, speak with his enemies in the gate. Some of us will have kids [01:00:00] occasionally that might hang our head and say, oh, was

not a great feather in our cap.

But again, it's never about us. The glory isn't, oh, look what I've done and, and take, it's more the grace of God. And the ultimate thing we gotta remember is these kids aren't our kids anyway. They're. People made in the image of God. We are stewards of their lives for a very critical portion of their life, but pr pretty short before they become an adult and their faith has to be their own. And we hope to be as good of example, of a self-denying kind of person as we can be for them, just to show them that we really believe that, that is, is not just something we believe it's, it's our way of life and it's our deepest held value. And hopefully they've seen us be consistent with that.

That even when we, we fail, first thing we do is I, I made a mistake. I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have done that. [01:01:00] And I think that goes a long way toward raising up a generation of, of young people that. Will be committed to the Lord and, and following that same message of the gospel.

And that's, that's where the blessing comes in. It's it's not, I've got extra hands to work in the garden or, some other kind of slave labor or competition to bragging rights who has more kids or grandkids and who's smarter, but it, it's seeing people made in God's image that learn what is the most important thing in life, which is to follow Jesus and to be like Jesus.

And where do you best learn that? But in interacting in a family and practicing these, these virtues with one another. The more the merrier then I guess you'd say, most

people wouldn't say, oh, the church, the church shouldn't be bigger than 10 people. 

Scott Beyer: Right.

Tom Hamilton: it small, now there's probably people say, oh, 5,000 people's too big of a church. But people are looking for a good sized family of people to interact with and [01:02:00] practice with and, and a and a family where there's just a mom and a

dad and one kid. It's a family

and it can be what God would have it to be. When I became a parent for the first time, that makes a, a profound difference in your life. You suddenly see things a little differently than you did before. You can't help it. 'cause here's this vulnerable life that is entirely dependent upon you for its care, and you get nothing back from it, overtly for a long time, and yet you love this child more than any human being's ever loved a child, but then you have a second child and it's not like you had to take your, pie and cut it in half. And so now we give Michael half the pie, and Bethany, half the pie, your pie actually increases.

Your capacity to love grows as that love is shared. And once you understand that principle, it's as long as we're able to have children. Or give a home to [01:03:00] children. That's what God in essence has done. Why he didn't, why did he choose to create us? He didn't. He didn't need us. He wasn't dependent upon us.

He wasn't incomplete without us. But because he is love, that's just the very nature of God. He wanted to grow that love and share that love. And even knowing that a lot of people are gonna reject it, it's worth it for those that will reciprocate that and have a relationship with him. And for very much the same reasons that God created us, we should be interested in being co-creators with God and bringing other human beings into existence in homes that will love them and care for them and teach them and know that relationship with God because God is glorified.

The more you have that situation. So 

Scott Beyer: I love 

Tom Hamilton: my rambling 

Scott Beyer: more the merrier and after all, who doesn't like more pie?

Tom Hamilton: That's right. But that's the way love is. It's that you can't [01:04:00] quantify it, to me it's the closest illustration of how can God be one God, three, the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, because if I have one cup of coffee and I distribute it in three other cups, the best I can do is put a third cup of coffee in each cup. But that's something you can quantify, measure. But if you could picture that I take my cup of love and I pour it into each of my children it's more love than I started with. There's, it's an infinity of, love. And so maybe there's, it's not an accident after all that John says. Not once, but twice.

God is love. It's, it really is the closest analogy.

Scott Beyer: Thank you very much for your time and I love your family. Love you. And I know lots of people already know you, but maybe just maybe there'll be a few people through listening to this that get to know you that didn't before and their world will be better for