Love Better

Diamonds in the Rough: a conversation with Paul Hawthorne

March 14, 2023 Season 1 Episode 10
Love Better
Diamonds in the Rough: a conversation with Paul Hawthorne
Show Notes Transcript

This week on the Love Better podcast we are talking about rough beginnings, hope if you've had one, and how to help others out of dark places.  This is a conversation with my good friend, Paul Hawthorne, Christian, evangelist, and d lifelong coach and mentor to so many. Paul has a lifetime of experience advocating for and guiding people out of addiction, sin, and troubled pasts.

We talk about giving good counsel, the need for love, what it is like to come to Jesus from an irreligious background, and where there is hope in a world full of bad news.

"Remember, you are loved, so go, love better!"

New episodes drop on Tuesdays.

Scott Beyer: I’m Scott Beyer and this is the Love Better podcast where we explore the truths and lies about love and more importantly how to turn love into a skill – something we can get better at and hone.

One of my goals with this podcast is to introduce an audience I love to people I love.  I’d like you to meet Paul Hawthorne.  Paul is an evangelist in the Pacific Northwest and he’s 79 years young.  Paul’s shorter, wiry, with the type of white hair that emphasizes wisdom and a smile that tells you to brace yourself for mischief.  Paul is an otter of a human being – extroverted, fun-seeking, and enthusiastic about life.  He’s a dear friend, a wonderful mentor, and a consummate optimist.

Paul has logged more hours counseling people about life than many of us have spent living it.  He has seen things, met people at their darkest moments, and led people out of a lifetime’s worth of baggage.  Paul believes in people and he makes you want to believe in them to.

Paul kindly spent some time with me discussing life, people, and where to start if you want to help.  Paul has a knack for not giving up on people and seeing the diamonds in this rough world.  We discuss addiction, regret, shame, and how God meets our need for love.  I love Paul, and he makes me better for time with him.  I think he will do the same for you.

Paul Hawthorne: I grew up in a loving but alcoholic and somewhat dysfunctional family. As everybody has their own nuttiness.

And I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio on the lower West side. That is not the best side of I've met people from Cleveland afterward that said, where are you from? I told 'em they didn't wanna talk to me after that . Anyhow, back in the day, I had no role models at all, nor did anybody else that I know. It wasn't just me it was everybody, and I was on the wrong track by about age 12, my father died when I was 15, and by 17 my life was in flame.

And so the last stupid thing I did, I survived and I was surprised. I woke up and I said, wow, you're alive. And I remember telling, and I tell people that I prayed. I said, God, if there is a God, I'd be willing to consider what you have to say because what I've been doing doesn't work. I just, there was nobody to turn to.

There was nobody to. and I was in high school in failing classes cause I just didn't care. And there was one girl a row ahead and a seat over and I asked her out and she was a dedicated Christian. And she said if you wanna go out with me on Wednesday night, I'll be at church. And so she gave me a choice.

Okay. And I was really uncomfortable. And but I'd go and. And I say this so our audience can think about the people I talked to. I've absolute felt absolute alien outsider. I was the kid that everybody else know, this kid's a loser and I didn't want their sympathy. So I'd sit in the very last row, the seat right at the aisle.

So when they got near the prayer and the guy started praying, I'm out the. . I didn't want their pity, I didn't want their conversation. I just knew what the preacher was saying applied to me, and I didn't want them to know how badly. And the neat thing about it was the preacher's son who was younger than I, 14 years old, would run out the door after me.

Man, I'm booking across the street. I want to turn the corner. I don't want them to see me or talk to me. He'd run out and call out. Thanks for coming, huh? And the second thing, some weeks later, a mom, maybe 45 years old at that time, had one of these in the olden days, he had spirit duplicators and had purple ink and this kind of thing.

And she had a trifold, one piece of paper folded up three times and she met me in a parking lot. She said, Paul, would you be interested in the home bible study? And I looked at that. I don't know what to say because I thought they're going to get me and I didn't know what Get Me was but they didn't know how badly I wanted it, but I didn't want them to know I wanted, And I said, okay.

And I studied for 13 weeks. And on the last paragraph at the bottom, I'd always say, can we do anything to help you? And I thought that's, they want to get me, they want me to be baptized. And I didn't say anything there because if I said yes, then no it, I didn't want 'em to know it if I said no, that wasn't true.

So I was stuck till the last page, the. Installment. I said, I wanna be baptized. Didn't say anything else. Handed it to the lady and walked away. She opened up Reddit. She came running after me. She said, Paul, do you mean this? Are you serious? I said, absolutely. She said, when I said, right now, today, I'd never seen anybody baptized.

I didn't know how it worked. I thought, I'm in a suit. I'll get on the bus dripping wet, I'll look obvious. I said, I don't care. I'm going to do it. The reason, the value of saying that is, Look for opportunities and display courage to ask the person that looks like the last one and lie. There are people out there who want a better life and they don't know how to begin.

They don't know who to trust. You be that person.

Scott Beyer: Paul has this heart, and I've seen it as long as I've known him, preaching the gospel to find the people on the fringe find the outliers the one that statistically everybody would say, oh, that one isn't gonna make it. And time again, . I've seen him connect with those people.

And it sounds like part of why that is that you were that

Paul Hawthorne: Yes. Yes. Because once you realize their life is a mess, . Paul, your life was a mess and somebody had pity. and courage. Apparently the people in the congregation had talked among themselves and said, no, you studying with the guy, he's too argumentative, . So they handed me a piece of paper and I was given a Bible and they said, you wanna argue with somebody, argue with God.

But there's people out there that they don't know how to react and interact. Look for the people along the highways and the hedges.

Scott Beyer: So you've seen it change your life, but are you a one-off. Do you, from your standpoint, is it like that worked for me, but but nobody else, or have you seen that change that you saw in your life? Have you seen that happen in other people's lives too?

Paul Hawthorne: A absolutely not clear my throat cuz it's emotional for me. Just think, if an idiot like me can make it, anybody can make it. Lemme just give you a handful of people that mean tons to me and they're real life people that I know. I interact with a person, 16 year old female heroin addict, converted, become one of the most loving members of the church, growing, studying, helping.

being cherished and faithful for 50 years. Wow. One guy, self-involved, had all the toys, but didn't have Christ, became a Christian, became a leader in the congregation, enormously respected, taking on responsibility, protecting and blessing the church, being an ardent Bible student. Being a terrific example in one year.

 Or a musician, a guy with long hair down below his shoulder blades, becoming a Christian, becoming trim. Respected Deacon, how about a rough and tumble hard living? Alaska gold miner. Becoming dedicated, caring, generous, faithful member of God's family for the rest of their lives.

A couple more individuals with massive health problems, epilepsy, seizures, grand malls every day. Hundreds of mini malls. One of the most inspirational, dedicated Bible students, Christians that I've come across. A couple more. A grandmother with a third grade Oklahoma education. became one of my best act students.

Wow. A guy with D H D, severe military pt, s d from a family where one parent was murdered. The other parents in prison raised by relatives who didn't love them, become one of the most ENT dedicated, self-sacrificing, evangelistic people I've ever met. The difference is Jesus Christ. He made us to be seed sowers, not soil analysts.

I don't think that guy will do it. Just put the seed out there and see what happens. Go into the highways and byways. Luke 1423. Absolutely not a one shot deal.

Scott Beyer: So one of the things that you do with people, and I know I've seen you do it with others and I've experienced it on the other side of it where you did it for me is you have this way and I'm not gonna properly Replicate it. But you walk up to people and not every day, but in the right moment, you will look at 'em and you will tell 'em.

I want you to know I believe in

Yes.

Can you tell me why? Why you do that? You're the only person I know who does that. Why?

Paul Hawthorne: I'll tell you what happened. There's pieces of the puzzle. 20 years ago I realized how well people respond to positive, people respond to beatings, but that's a different dynamic to it. And I started telling people, you get a gold star. And I saw. People in grocery stores and medical offices and law offices, foreman on a street crew, I'd tell them that and you could just see they get so much of the chatter and the negative, Hey, you guys are late and you're not doing the right job.

They get beaten down and so somebody's saying, I appreciate you men a lot. I then went on and I bought some actual gold stars. I could get somewhere, one of the Hobby Lobby or Walmarts or something that had. Foam on the back, so it has a little bit of texture to it and adhesive. And I'd see, I'd come back and see here are people in medical offices that have a pastry of their computer.

I go into, some digital thing and the guy said, you gave them a gold star. I didn't get one. And I saw how much that meant to people. Now, fast forward 15 years ago, there was a brother in Christ who came to me. and said, Paul, I believe in you. I said, what do you mean? And he told me and I, that meant so much to me.

I choose people once in a while. So this isn't an everyday thing. Maybe once every five years, this is how big a deal it is. I'll choose somebody, maybe a man or a woman or somebody, and I'll sit them down. I'll say, I wanna tell you something I believe in. and you could see they draw a breath and trying to figure out what are you saying?

I said, I want you to understand what I mean when I say that I believe in the kind of person you are, the dedication you show, the goals you have, and I am so thankful for you. I believe in you. And they carry that with them like you did.

Scott Beyer: I've always considered you be a very optimistic and upbeat person, and full disclosure, I think when I first knew you, I thought it's just because he's unrealistic. Like I'm I, my view was I'm the realistic cynic. Because the world really is burning down. Paul just doesn't know it.

If Paul knew it, he wouldn't be optimistic, but over the years, no. That's not been the case. You and I have had some very frank conversations about the darkness in the world and when things are broken and problems amongst God's people and. I've come to value the fact that you don't have an unrealistic view.

I, in my opinion, your perspective is pretty right on. And yet you are still wildly more optimistic than me. How do you stay optimistic when things are dark?

Cuz I, I, that's hard for me.

Paul Hawthorne: that's really a great question. And Scott, seriously, it doesn't apply obviously, just to you, applies to everybody because on one level, the world really is a dark place. It has massive problems to deal with. The problems are so massive, they're beyond my, the scope of my competency.

And I wasn't always this way when I was 22, I came out here to Washington and I got married and I thought it was a decision. I saw this other brother that was always positive and upbeat, and we can do that and make it happen. I was like, oh yeah, but I don't know. And I said, Paul, stop it. You're gonna be a more positive person.

And and I think about just in passing, Daniel, Really in a different context, but the idea was Daniel made up his mind. That's okay. Now I'm not talking about people with mental illness and chemical disorders. I'm just talking about the stuff that we can control within. Ne Daniel four 16 had a problem beyond me just encouraging him.

He's out there eating grass. Hey buddy. I dunno what to say about that. But the kind of things that we can do. A lot of the time, happiness and optimism and positivity is a choice. Think about this. What I try to do is I focus on things that make for happiness. For instance, I identify and memorize and share scriptures that I find personally encouraging.

They go, man, we can do. In Ecclesiastes 2 24, Solomon said, there's nothing better than to eat and drink and tell yourself your labor is good. Oh, it was a rotten day and I hated, and the dog messed on the lawn. And the neighbors people complain to themselves and about themselves, says, stop it. What if we went to end the day and say, man, what a great day this is.

God made it. I'm alive. Woo. Let's make good things happen. I think about passages when you feel like, man, I don't think I have as much energy. Isaiah 40 in verse 31. Those who wait for the Lord will mount up with wings like eagles. They will run and not get tired. They will walk and not paint. What we say to ourselves means a ton about that.

I have the opportunity to spar with individual. That are black belts. One guy's a fourth degree, 20 years younger than I am, massive background and capacity, and I'm ready to spar with it. I am worn out. He looks me in the eye and he says, Paul, you can do this. You can do it like a okay, and that adrenaline comes in and you're ready for the next round.

How you talk to yourself means. Passages. People have various favorite ones. Many people, although they'll argue about the application, Romans 8 28, all things work together for good. Paul, as you look at that, what positive thing can come out of that in the midst of all this chaos? Philippians four 13.

I can do all things through Christ. I don't know how to grow feathers. I can't flap my arms and reach 30,000 feet. I can do everything God wants me to do. Paul, can you meet this next challenge? Yes. And a passage that I share repeatedly with people I like it best. Out of the New American standard version

daniel 1132, particularly the second half of the verse that says, those who know their God will display strength and take action look, what's your goal? What do you wanna do? What do you wanna make happen?

Man, summon that. Now take that first step. So I surround myself with positive things. I wanna surround myself with positive people. Proverbs 27 17, like iron sharpens iron. 

And I wanna read books. Material that's really positive to myself. Proverbs 4 23, watch over your heart with all diligence for from it flow the springs of life. And they say, now, Paul, how do you do that with the evening news? Here's how you do it. Do not watch the evening.

Scott Beyer: You're making a concerted choice to to remove some of those influences.

Paul Hawthorne: I don't wanna be ignorant. And I have a friend that says, Paul, I came across this really awful thing and it'll make you sick. Here, let me show you. I said, I don't wanna be sick. Yeah. But all it is this. And he didn't these horrible things. And here's how I weigh that. Can I change that at all if I can't? I don't want to hear it. go on the internet. I'll look for the headlines. Beep. Got it. Is there something I particularly need to see? Fine. If there's war in Ukraine, I can't really stop the war, but I could feed some of the Ukrainians there on the ground. There's something I can do to help.

And I wanna focus on the things that are good. If here's something, if there's homeless people and there are in our area if they come to our door, I got some nice wolf socks, you can have you just can't live on our porch . So doing those kind of things that is good and encouraging and inspiring to others.

While recognizing all this chaos goes on, if I can't fix it I don't want to dress myself in everybody else's latest miserable tragedy because of blah, blah. I want to serve God. I want to serve my fellow man. What can I do positive today?

Scott Beyer: So you're making choices as to, it sounds like, not just about what you say to other people, but you talked a lot about what you say to yourself

Paul Hawthorne: Oh, it's huge. Some people I'll see in the really downcast, I was counseling at a kid's camp . Here's this one late teen girl, she's sitting by herself and head down. I get to talking to her and what's happening? And she's saying all these negative, I can't, don't and don't, blah, blah, blah.

And I. , can I ask you a question? If you had a friend that talked to you the way you talked to you, would you keep 'em as a friend? They said no So think about how you talk to you. And that really brings forth the kind of person you wanna be, how you want to interact with life. How can you really help others and be an inspiration?

Scott Beyer: I think it's interesting how you keyed in, in that conversation on the verb she was using, because I don't know what the conversation was. You didn't give any details, but you heard can't, don't, these negative verbs. Those are your action words, right? Those are the words that, that move us.

So if your action words are always negative,

Paul Hawthorne: There's your outlook on life. I can't fix anything. Everything's terrible. It's going down to drain. I just might as well sit on an iceberg and die. Whoa, wait a minute. You've got a mission. There's something for you to do. Interact, but choose your battles and go forward with energy.

Scott Beyer: Paul, how old are you?

Paul Hawthorne: You got a birthday coming up?

I'll be 79.

Scott Beyer: So one happy birthday in advance. Two. I realize all of a sudden as we're talking, there's a very real possibility people would not know that you're 79 because of several things. One, there's no video, right? Where it's audio only, but two, you don't talk like.

The stereotypical 79 year old. Unfortunately, what I think happens sometimes is that the older generation feeds the younger generation, a belief that things are so much worse now and all inheriting is a mess. Boy, the world's burning and. See ya,

Paul Hawthorne: Yep, exactly.

Scott Beyer: And I don't ever get that from you. And I think about Ecclesiastes and the idea that it's not wise to say the former days were better than these.

I just see you living that and it hit me all of a sudden. You don't sound like an old man.

Paul Hawthorne: I don't act like an old man

Scott Beyer: You don't complain, right? You don't point out to everybody, all of the things that are wrong, even though there are many things wrong in this world. I'm I'm not disagreeing with idea that there are problems, but there, there have always been problems in this world, and we still gotta live in it.

Paul Hawthorne: Amen. And you have a choice. What do you want to do? Do you want to create and build or just want to lay in a puddle and groan? That's individual choice and mine is, Figure out which direction you want to go and then go there with enthusiasm.

Scott Beyer: Yeah. And you think about Jesus. If there was anybody who had a right to say, this is a horrible world, it would be him. Because one, he knew what it was meant to be cuz he was there when God, when they made it and made it paradise and two, he left heaven, so he leaves heaven. The earth is so much worse than that.

But to your point, he. Lay down at a puddle. He just said let's get after it. Let's get things done let's make a difference. And of course, nobody made more of a difference than him. It's one thing to say, okay, the world out there is bad, but I'm gonna see the best in it.

But what happens when you're dealing with regret, when you've made choices and now there are consequences and the consequences aren't going away. Your kids grew up and you just didn't raise them the way you should. Or your marriage is not in the place that it should be. And there were a lot of things that were said you can't unsay.

And w what do you do when you wake up one day and you realize you've got this pile of regret to deal with?

Paul Hawthorne: Wow.

What a great question. I'd start by saying everybody has regrets. You don't get out of this life alive without having 'em. Why? Because every man sins. We make choices we wish we hadn't. David had regrets. Psalm 51, verse three, my sin is ever before me. Apostle Paul had regrets.

One Corinthians 15 and verse nine, I am the least of the apostles not fit to be an apostle because I persecuted the saints.

Peter had regrets. Jesus talks to him and Do you love me? Oh yeah, but I had been acting that way. Probably one of the things to address, because this applies to everybody. The issue is not, I can't forgive myself. The reason why that's not the issue is it's not your job. There's no place in the Bible that ever tells you to forgive you.

There's no biblical formula that you follow for you to forgive you. That's God's. what you're really saying is, I'm grieving over these decisions that I made that just break my heart, and you're allowed to grieve. You actually get the privilege of determining how long you need to grieve. , it may be

Two months, two years, 20 years.

All your life, you're a allowed degree. But the real issue is what are you going to do that you have these regrets? God, I am so sorry. I will learn from that. I will not repeat that, but I, my kids are lost. They're gone. What I tell people, then save somebody else's.

Your grandkids. Save this loser kid that nobody wants to talk to, cuz he just shys you.

Look for the individuals that there's an opportunity to build and somebody just has to show the interest in them. It may be the parents didn't see it, but the grandparents would see it. Or you see somebody else's kids along that line. I'm impressed by Elijah. He had a lot of problems. Here is Jezebel death worn out.

He gets out of the country down there in Mount Sinai and he's in a cave. So if you talk about hiding from life there, he was. I'm out of the country. I'm not around anybody else. God comes to him and says, Eli. , what are you doing here? love. I thought my reason and is God and all these problems and Jezebel and everybody else's.

I'm the only one. And God says, Elijah, that's not true. Elijah, what I want you to do, I want you to go back to Syria and I want you to anoint Hazel King of Syria, and I want you to anoint Jehu King of Israel. And I want you to anoint Elisha as prophet in your. You've got all these problems, you're not going to solve Jezebel.

Your job is to get to work. And that's what I tell people. You have this heartache. You can't unring a bill, you can't unspell milk. It just is now what you want to do because you have a broader. , you have greater perspective, alright. What I can do to honor God and bless others is this, what do you do with regret?

Acknowledge it. Take it to heart. Determine how long you want to grieve over it and say, okay, that's a 15 year grief. Okay? But in the meantime, get to work. Get busy helping others.

Scott Beyer: I love that idea. That regret has broadened your education. You know something, right? You, if you didn't know something new now you wouldn't have regret. So

Paul Hawthorne: right?

Scott Beyer: use that. So somebody comes into your office and they have an addiction problem or they have a marriage problem, or any fill in the blank. Where do you start?

Paul Hawthorne: Wow. Depends on who they are and where they're starting. Are they a Christian and fallen away? Are they? In my case, as a kid, I knew about Jesus Christ. What'd you know? There was Christmas and something about Jesus was born. Paul, did you know anything else?

Anything? No. Anything about the Bible? No. So it depends on where they are. But let's just say. A case where somebody comes and cuz you have a person, do they want to hear it or are they drugged by their mate or forced to by community service. So they start in different places.

So let me take somebody that's come that's thinking about what you're saying might be right. And so what I try to do is I start where they are, whatever pain they're going through, and here's just a couple verses in Proverbs chapter four, verse 18 and 19, he says, the way of the righteous grows brighter and. , but the path of the wicked is darkness. They do not know over what they stumble. I might be saying Harry and Sally, you guys have had so much problems in your life.

You've been in jail and outta jail or addiction or marriage problems, and you don't know how to get out of all this. You care about each other. If I could show you a way, would you. If they say no, okay, , then we're done talking, Hey, you wanna have a Hamburg or

Scott Beyer: There's our answer. Okay. Yeah.

Paul Hawthorne: But most of the time they do. They just dunno how to get there or do they trust the people that are telling them.

And so sometimes I'll take a person, I'll say, let's talk about how painful that is for you, because I want them to know I'm hearing you. I know a little bit about what you're going through and it is so wrenching. Let's talk about, as we face a God of compassion, what would that be like?

A long time ago, my older daughter, Jenny, had asked me, dad, what's your favorite passage in the bible? And sometimes as we go along, our favorite passages change because of circumstance or age or whatever has happened. And one of them, interestingly, and particularly at that time was Sam 103, and I want to get to verse 14, but I will begin in verse.

Eight and he says, the Lord is compassion and gracious, slow to anger and abounding and loving kindness. He will not always strive with us, nor will he keep his anger forever. He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. I'd say listen to this verse 11, for as high as the heavens are above, or so great as his loving kindness toward those that.

What if there was a difference in your life? What if you served a God that really loved you and really cared about what happened to you? Yeah, but you don't know what I've done and so forth. And verse 12, as far as the east is from the West, so far he's removed our transgressions from us. Man if you lose something and you lost your ring, and it's 8,000 miles away and down at the bottom of the dead, Eh,

I'm not coming back. We're too far away. What he's saying is, when God forgives you, he'll clean your slate. Verse 13, as a father has compassion on his children, you may or may not have had a compassionate parent, but you know how compassionate you would like to be to your kids, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him.

Now, here's the verse. I did all that in preparing for verse. For, he himself knows our frame. He is mindful that we are, but dust. I'm not made out of titanium, and I regularly tell people, if you need flawless, don't come to me. I don't know how to do flawless. I know how to do pretty good but not flawless.

And I say, Harry and Sally, or whatever their names are. , does that appeal to you with a better life? Really rewarding, being respected and honored? Does that appeal to you? And most of the time they say, oh yeah, , they just dunno how to get there. See I wanna reach their heart. I'm not twisting their arm.

And it's just joyous when somebody points the way and say, if you like some encouragement, I'd be glad to. . That's how I start.

Scott Beyer: there's one thing to receive counsel from somebody who just wants to deal with the problem. Hey you've got this drug addiction. Let's get you away from the drugs.

You got this problem with your spouse and you're fighting. Let's fix that and help you communicate. It's another to approach it from the standpoint of, at the center of this, you need God and. W when you're talking with people, how do you get that across that, that, that need for God is so integral to everything else working.

Paul Hawthorne: Maybe the way I'll start is I had a conversation with a drug counselor one time, and a person might be. An alcoholic or in and out of prison or whatever it is. And I think I got it all together. I said, yeah. And so here's how this alcohol counselor said, it's hard to define an alcoholic.

But if you're running your car into telephone poles and falling down manhole covers, you probably are. You're experiencing certain things that most people don't have to do every day of your. . And so I'll just walk 'em through. I said, I talked to one gal, she had committed 23 felonies and she's about 22 years old.

How happy is that? One guy asked me would I help him would I take him to a clinic for a methadone program, artificial narcotic, to get him on the right track? And I said, where are you? Oh, I'm up here. By this casino on the hill. Okay. As he says that, I said are you camping? That is the polite word for me.

You're homeless. And he, he said, yes. And I said, have you got a tent? He said, no. He said, and the worst thing, I'm just laying on the ground, and this was in the fall, he says, is the ants. He said, if you have some ants, . So he'd lost his wife, his job, his home, then his apartment, then his furniture and his car and his teeth

When a person really gets to a certain spot, they realize my smart alecky answers and my solutions, it'll be fine. Doesn't work. And so when a person is just grindingly miserable, I tell people what I tell individuals about me. I got to a spot where they didn't use these words, but the message was, Paul, there are better decisions. And when they can see, look everybody else, all their friends. Addicts and in jail and a divorce and all these kind of things. I say, God loves you. He really cares about you and what he is about to tell you isn't to make it tougher on you, but better for you. He's really got the answers cuz we've been trying 'em, all the worldly ones and they don't work and we know it.

We just don't know what to do. And we've learned not to trust people cuz they'll. And it takes a while to generate that trust. He said, I will never hurt you. I'm, you're not here by a coercion. I'll not twist your arm. You can leave at any time. I just want to say, tell you there's a better way. God says, I built you.

I know what it is. If you'd like to know, I'll share it with.

Scott Beyer: In all of these relationships and people that you come in contact with that are looking for help how much is love a factor in that? Either their search for love or their inability to give love? Is that a factor? Is that not an issue or is love a factor in a healthy.

Paul Hawthorne: Wow. I take a big breath as you say that cuz I go all the way back to my teenage years. If you'd have asked me, is that what you want? No, I don't want love. Hey, I'm just doing my thing. Really what you wanted was respect from the other guys, the guys in the gang, or from whoever. But the reality is he hunger for love because we feel unworthy.

We are unworthy, , we are a mess,

And we've done a lot to get ourselves there. Or in some cases, the parents were abusive or neglectful. And so the kids get the message. You don't count, you don't matter. You're ugly, unwanted, all these horrible. And I think about the prodigal son that made a mess outta his life.

And I'm thinking about coming back and seeing his father in Luke 15 verse 11 and verse 19, he said, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. We realize that we don't feel worthy. We're not worthy, and that's how could somebody care about me. So that's huge. And when somebody says, I do, I love you, we go yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so we're distrustful. and they don't know how to show love very well. Matthew 2239. That's the second greatest commandment. Love God, love your neighbor. And we don't know how to do that because everybody around us, we didn't trust our parents. We didn't seriously, my kid didn't trust my best friend, didn't trust my brother, didn't trust my brother's friends.

There's only one person I could trust. That was me. And as long as you don't get too close to me, I'll be. You're trying to show him there's a God that loves you and it's different for him, and it takes a while to earn that confidence. And so that love is really the center of a healthy life. I think at first Corinthians 1313 love is greater than faith.

How can it be greater than faith? It's greater than hope. It'll last longer. And so what you're showing them is. I really care about you. Just a personal story won't work for everybody. Some family, some guys particularly man they don't even say the word love. I converted one guy who was really talent.

He was drug dealer and came to Christ and converted his wife. And he said to me, Mrs. 30 years ago, Paul, I love you. I thought, man, guys, never say that to guys. , but he just meant it in a manly way that Paul, I am where I am because of you. Yeah. The only reason I am where I am is because of Jesus Christ and that aspect that somebody else really cares about you and I take a breath as I say that, and that you can trust them.

His trust is that huge determiner in there. Love is the center of a healthy life. , it's the greatest of Christian virtues. 

Scott Beyer: I think you make a huge point too that trust is a huge factor in love, right? Because if you grew up and didn't have trust in your, in your family growing up that wasn't a part of the DNA of your childhood, if it's, if you've been in a marriage that's had a lot of violation and manipulation and. Or you're just around people who, that's the people you surrounded yourself with are people who are manipulative and untrustworthy and lie to get ahead. You don't really know what's real. So I think people hunger for those relationships where somebody says, I love you, and they have nothing to gain for 

Paul Hawthorne: that.

is genuine.

Scott Beyer: just sincere. Yeah. Genuine. Exactly. And. A lot of times at least in my experience, people don't know how to process that at first if they've never experienced it before.

Paul Hawthorne: Absolutely.

Scott Beyer: Paul, what have I missed?

Paul Hawthorne: A thing that we we hadn't touched on much, but is worth highlighting is what does that person feel like when they look at you as a Christian? See if you can get in touch with that. They feel absolute alien,

It's like I drop you off, in Guyana. Bolivia Patagonia, and it's different and they talk a different language, and it's all, you don't know how to I don't know that they like me or should I be, or how do I, we don't know how to act.

And so as a non-believer, we're stepping into a community of people that they all know the language and the secret, I'll say handshakes and all this stuff that we don't know and we just know we don't know. and we feel absolutely alien and that somebody would be daring enough to invite us out for coffee and say, would you like to talk?

That's what I do all the time. I just say, would you like to have a cup of coffee? Okay and what I do is I just start, I said, tell me your story. And I said, you don't have to tell me anything you don't wanna tell. Where'd you grow up and what was it like for you? And that because you are willing to listen, their story just unfolds.

I came Across a gal one time that boy, she, to me, she was pleasant and social. She was in her thirties somewhere and probably I was in my mid forties. But boy, the guys around her, she. Took out her razor knife and just slashed and left them bleeding in the aisle verbally. Wow. And myself and one of the elders visitor one time, and we said, tell us your story.

And she told us her story. She said, when I was 14, I was raped by my uncle. So somewhere, I don't know. Oh, say Alabama, I don't know Missouri. When I was 15, my mother was murdered and died in my arms. I went, wow.

Devastating. Beyond words. I don't know how you survive that. How do you do that? What you're doing is asking for their story. You're respecting them and letting them tell their story in their words, 

Scott Beyer: and then her behavior makes sense,

Paul Hawthorne: Yes, and once she could tell her story and she was respected, she didn't have to be absolutely viciously brutal with everybody else.

She just relaxed. Yeah.

Scott Beyer: So not only did you understand her better because you'd asked for a story, , but her just being heard, changed her behavior.

Paul Hawthorne: So that, and we look at some people and man, isn't their situation awful? It's just disgusting, whatever. And what I think about is that, man, I don't even want to get close to them. And then I think what about our sin? Because there's not a righteous man on earth that continually does good and never sins ecclesiae See. But my sins aren't as bad as their sins. Theirs are worth sins. , what I talked to myself, I said Paul, you understand more. And since all sin is rebellion to God, how do you know that you're little in quotation mark Rebellion isn't seen as far more serious than theirs. Paul, get off your H High horse.

That person needs. See if they're interested.

Scott Beyer: Yeah. Yeah. When I I used to work at a zoo and zoos are full of all sorts of smelly creatures, and I remember. When you walk into a new exhibit, so you're gonna, you're on the backside, not the front of the exhibit where everybody gets to see the animals. It's all pretty, but you go to the back where they're feeding the animals and cleaning up after the animals.

And so you walk into a new area. Whether it be the monkeys or the snow leopard or whatever, and when you first walk in, it's an overpowering smell, but then you hang out there a little while and you're used to it. And that's what I feel like happens with our sins. It's oh, my sins are fine.

And it's just because I'm used to the smell. Your sins are much more disgusting. , but it's just because I've been hanging out with the smell of mine and and yours seem foreign to me, but really sin,

Paul Hawthorne: that's right. And it's good to talk to ourself about that. We're all a mess . And so we have one brother in Christ, Joe Bartle, who great kind of a mountain man, full beard kind of thing. And he said one thing I've just cherished forever.

He says, we're all misfits. We don't fit in the world anymore and we barely fit in Christ . So just like I just deal with it, live that life joyously and help everybody you can. So it's good stuff.

Scott Beyer: Paul, I always enjoy talking with you. You are the kind of person that makes the world brighter for having you in

Paul Hawthorne: Thank you my friend. Total joy time with you as well.

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